Riddlesdown Residents Association
General >> General Board >> Traffic Calming - School Runs

Message started by Trevor on Jun 18th, 2014 at 9:11am

Title: Traffic Calming - School Runs
Post by Trevor on Jun 18th, 2014 at 9:11am
This morning I had a confrontation with a driver using Ingleboro Drive as his own personal racetrack. He's threatened to come and knock at my door later to 'talk about it'. Obviously he doesn't mean 'talk'. His registration number is MT59XNM.

Two years ago, I had a wing mirror knocked off by someone on the school run.

It's only a matter of time until someone in the streets leading to Riddlesdown School is killed or seriously injured by the lunatics on the school run. It may be a car crash, it may be a school child being run over, or it may be (as is becoming popular in Croydon) a stabbing.

I'd like to see the RRA take traffic calming seriously. It's all very well the RRA campaigning against phone masts and planning applications, but let's see the RRA do something really useful - something for the safety of the residents, the school children and other road users.

There are numerous ways to calm traffic:
- reduced speed limit
- speed humps
- police presence with radar guns
etc etc etc

The RRA is in contact with the local police, Riddlesdown School, Croydon Council etc. Please can the RRA do something about this?

Title: Re: Traffic Calming - School Runs
Post by Phil_Thomas on Jun 18th, 2014 at 7:43pm
Your comments are noted Trevor and unfortunately it is not just Ingleboro Drive that is affected by the "school run" and speeding traffic. The RRA are fully aware of the problem in Ingleboro and other roads and we have again raised your comments with the Sanderstead & Purley Ward Councillors. We will report back when we hear from them.

Title: Re: Traffic Calming - School Runs
Post by Phil_Thomas on Jul 2nd, 2014 at 9:23am
Trevor - for information, the point about speeding in many residential roads in the area was raised at a local Police Consultative Panel meeting this week. Apparently the local Safer Neighbourhood teams have been targeting, in particular Purley Downs Road for speeding (outside of the RRA area) and have caught a number of speeders. They say they will also now be targeting a number of other roads in the vicinity. Be warned!

To date we've had no response from the Ward Councillors!

Title: Re: Traffic Calming - School Runs
Post by Toby Keynes on Aug 7th, 2014 at 9:57am
Hi, Trevor et al.
You mention the various approaches that can be taken to calm traffic:
"- reduced speed limit
- speed humps
- police presence with radar guns
etc etc etc"

Enforcement of the existing 30mph limit is the most obvious one, and I hope that with RRA encouragement some effort will be put into this.
I believe police enforcement action is very spasmodic indeed, and tends to be in heavily-publicised bursts over much busier through roads where they can count on catching many more offenders, rather that in enclaves such as ours.  Frankly, I think catching more offenders on busier roads (including Mitchley Avenue) is better use of police time and energy, as these will be largely the same people who speed on the side roads.
However, there needs to be a lot more enforcement, and this is a point that RRA could pursue with the police.  We are of course up against limited police budgets.

I'm deeply opposed to speed bumps.  I've never been in an ambulance with a back or neck injury, or indeed any injury that requires me to get to hospital as quickly as possible, but I can just imagine how awful and potential lethal speed bumps would be.  They're also noisy, they create vibrations in neighbouring houses that can be damaging, they can easily damage car suspensions and they encourage speed-up/slow-down driving which is also noisy, polluting and just as dangerous.
There are other methods of traffic calming, but they tend to come with their own problems and they're invariably extremely expensive to instal (which means they're not likely to happen).

This is where we may be on to a winner.
The new council is committed to supporting 20mph speed limits in residential areas "where residents want it" (Croydon Labour Manifesto), and the whole of Riddlesdown west of Mitchley Avenue would make a natural 20mph enclave (especially given that there's a large school within it).
20mph zones are now very low-cost to set up, so it's doable.  They won't stop the speed freaks, but just slowing down law-abiding citizens to 20mph is enough to make accidents less likely and far less lethal.
I would encourage RRA to find out what the requirements are; obviously, residents' surveys would be involved, and quite rightly we won't get it unless there's majority support from residents. 
East of Mitchley Avenue is of course also worth pursuing, if residents want it.

Title: Re: Traffic Calming - School Runs
Post by Phil_Thomas on Aug 10th, 2014 at 2:10pm
Hi Toby

Thank you for your input.

To comment on your points:
Police Presence - As I said previously the RRA have highlighted about some speeding vehicles at the Sanderstead SNT Police panel (Purley SNT also covers our area as well). They are aware of it but can only police as resources allow and as you say side streets like ours have a low priority. The only time I have seen traffic officers with speed guns, is in Mitchley Ave by the lay by near the shops (but not since the speed camera has been installed) and also in Riddlesdown Rd. Speeding by some will be raised again by the RRA at the next Sanderstead SNT meeting.

Speed Humps Ė The RRA fully support and agree with what you said and in our view speed humps are not the answer. Most of Riddlesdown is built on chalk and chalk is a hard substance and it does transmit sound well, because it is well compacted. Hence the reason why some residents hear the trains vibrating through the tunnel in their dwellings! Noise from vehicles going over humps, especially lorries, builders vans and vehicles towing trailers would be extremely disturbing to some residents. We also live in an area with a number of valleys and again sound echoes off the sides of the valleys. I have also been spending a lot of time in Carshalton recently and the LB of Sutton seem to have a bottomless pit of money as far as road humps and 20 mph zones are concerned in their Borough! However, in my view they do not all work and in most instances vehicles are travelling faster than the previous 30mph, and in many instances at between 35 and 40 mph (and sometimes up to 50mph). In one particular road, because vehicles are in a line of traffic they are trying to get through the width restrictions (where positioned) quickly and not have to wait at the width restrictors to give way to traffic coming in the opposite directions. The speed humps in many of these roads, because of bus routes, are not the full width so wider cars can usually miss them and travel fast! Personally I think they are a complete and utter waste of money, which could have been spent better utilised on other traffic calming measures!

Reduced Speed Limits Ė From a legal point of view 20 mph Speed Zones are exactly the same as 20 mph Limits with regard to the speed you are allowed to drive at. Both have a maximum speed of 20 mph. However the primary difference between "zones" and "limits" is one of engineering and the requirements for additional signing, etc.

20 mph zones require that no point in the "zone" is further than 50m from a traffic calming feature, (i.e. road hump or width restrictor or chicane) unless the road is a cul-de-sac of less than 80m in length. A 20 mph zone is indicated by special 20 mph zone entry and exit signs. No additional speed limit signs are used within a 20 mph zone because the traffic calming methods should mean that vehicle speeds are low enough for the signs to be unnecessary. So zones would perhaps not be preferable in Riddlesdown?

20 mph "limits" are indicated by speed limit signs and repeater signs at regular intervals. 20 mph limits usually do not have any traffic calming features. However these can be added if required. Yes, 20 mph limits could be implemented in Riddlesdown if residents of some streets agreed to them; however, the Police are hardly ever seen in our side streets enforcing the 30 mph speed limit. What chances are they going to be there for those doing in excess of 20mph?!

I also believe some of their equipment is not calibrated to enforce 20mph and Iíve never heard of anyone issued with a speeding ticket for exceeding 20mph? Although I stand to be corrected on this. So what is to stop drivers exceeding 20 mph limit, other than their own conscious, other limit-conforming drivers and enforcement. I think generally more that 80% of drivers do currently respect the 30mph limit in our area but of course there are a few who don't! You also have to remember that virtually all car speedometers are inaccurate by up to 10% and are actually showing a speed greater than what is actually being travelled at. Done deliberately by the manufacturers and EU laws!

Croydon Council did report back in January 2014 that they were consulting on 20mph limits in some areas of the Borough outside some schools. However, Riddlesdown Collegiate was not one of them. The report is on this link.† https://secure.croydon.gov.uk/akscroydon/images/att3233.pdf

Apart from the two comments on this message board from yourself and Trevor, the RRA havenít to date, to my knowledge, received any other complaints about excessive speeding traffic?† However we will monitor it if a number of other residents raise the issue. Street parking and access problems to driveways/sightlines in streets near to the Collegiate and the Station is more of an issue with a number of residents.

For info, this is the Government website showing accidents at all locations near to schools in the country and this is link for LB Croydon which show only one accident in Mitchley Hill in 2013. http://road-collisions.dft.gov.uk/collision-map/croydon?Year=2013&AccidentSeverity=Fatal,Serious&AgeBand=&VehicleType=

It'll be interesting if we receive any other views on this message board.

Title: Re: Traffic Calming - School Runs
Post by Dan on Apr 5th, 2018 at 10:30am
We  now have 20mph zones with all the expensive signage.

What's the point when it's not being enforced?

The limit is being ignored in Coombe Wood Hill

Title: Re: Traffic Calming - School Runs
Post by Phil_Thomas on Apr 6th, 2018 at 7:31pm

The reports the RRA are receiving (and from personal viewing), ALL streets in the RRA area still continue to witness speeds of 30/40/50/60mph. Commercial van drivers seem to be some of the worst offenders. Some motorists have slowed down a bit but are still not driving at 20 mph.

Cul-de-sacs seem to be the only streets where speeds above 20 mph are not occurring for obvious reasons, that motorists are only travelling short distances.

The trouble is, the Council implemented the blanket scheme in Areas 3,4 & 5 without a proper vote and consultation unlike Areas 1 & 2, where it was voted in by a very slim majority.† From what we are hearing, a more localised 20 mph on certain streets in Riddlesdown would possibly be much more effective, i.e near schools. The RRA have also heard comments from many law abiding residents that the will ignore these new 20 mph limits because they were not democratically voted in. Others will of course disagree with this.

Until the Police crack down on all 20mph streets in the whole of the LB of Croydon, and start enforcing the law vigorously, these speeds well above 20 mph will continue. However, Croydon Police stated at the outset they do not have extra resources to enforce these new speed limits in the Borough. The Council hope it will be self enforcing by motorists. We will have to see over the next few months/years.

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